Ramunchto Matta: Expanding human capacity

Credit: Oona Matta

Ramunchto Matta is a French composer and interdisciplinary artist. He has worked with people such as Don Cherry, Brion Gysin, John Cage, Chris Marker,  and Robert Wilson. He has released 34 solo CDs and collaborated on about 20 other albums. He has exhibited his visual work in Paris, New York, London, Madrid, Barcelona, Tokyo, and Rome.

A book titled Hello Yes Hello: 30 Dialogues, containing conversations between Kathelin Gray and Ramuntcho Matta about Brion Gysin and William Burroughs, was published by Moloko Plus in 2025, and Ce que Brion m'a dit de Gysin (Marcel le Poney) in 2026.

Your father was the Chilean surrealist painter Roberto Matta, who knew writers and artists such as Andre Breton, Joyce Mansour, Max Ernst, and Robert Motherwell. I imagine your childhood must have been interesting, with many famous artists around you. What was it like?

Everything was normal.

It was “normal” to sleep in a closet with holes in the door to be able to breathe.

It was “normal” to have a one-room apartment that was the studio of my father during
the day, the dining room in the evening, and the sleeping room of my father at night.  

My mother was the one to bring the money home.

She was a designer and a political activist.

She left the United States because she was accused of being a communist: she created the first radio station that played African-American music. 

Then she arrived in Rome and worked as a dancer in peplums.

Ramuntcho Matta's mother, Malitte Pope, 1948.  Photographer unknown

She was raised in Rochester, New York, and had a very special neighbour. An old woman who organised  salons. My mother met Marcel Duchamp, John Cage, and Martha Graham there.

As our flat was also the studio, it was very common to have visitors like Max Ernst, Dorothea Tanning, Asger Jorn, Öyvind Fahlström … Henri Michaux…

It was in Saint Germain des Prés, which was the centre of creativity … because it was a very cheap area … and it has a garden when you can walk and a lots of cafés … cafés were the only place with heat…

I remember that the discussions were always about improving the world and how we could help…

Brion Gysin and Ramuntcho Matta, early 1980s. Photographer unknown

It is well known that you met Brion Gysin when you were a teenager, and then later you did some musical collaborations and recordings with him. What were your immediate impressions of Gysin? Was he easy to work with?

“Work” ?

Well … at the beginning it was more like being adopted.

It was my teacher that sent me to him.

I was 15 years old and totally lost.

My teacher offered me a “deal” … if I went to poetry and philosophy classes and went to help a friend of his who was dying, he would not tell my parents that I did not go to school. And if I did well, he would make me pass class every year.

So, every morning I went to Brion.

Help him to get dressed sometimes, clean the place.

And then I would roll a joint and he would go to his desk to write.

After one hour he would take a break and we would speak about a lot of different things … literature, science, art, history … and then he would go back to write, and I would go to buy some food… I would prepare lunch and go to school…

Brion Gysin, early 1980s. Photographer: Ramuntcho Matta

I came back at tea time (4:20) and almost every day William Burroughs would call and they would speak for about one hour… (I have no idea how that was possible because at the time telephone calls were really expensive).

And after that it was time for visitors…

Always very interesting people from different fields and parts of the world.

Four Roses bourbon times two…

After that I would go home and Brion took a nap.

Some time later on we met to go to clubs to have fun.

Especially The Privilege. This was a VIP club under a disco called The Palace. To get in you had to be creative. It was the place to be…

All the cream of global creativity was gathered there … from Mick Jagger to Truman Capote.

My teacher was Maurice Benhamou, and he told me 20 years after that Brion was doing a full report on the subjects we discussed.

Mythology, religion, architecture  … personal experiences…

He took the job very seriously.

Brion Gysin, Yann Lecker and Ramuntcho Matta, early 1980s.  Photographer unknown

In his book The Beat Hotel, Barry Miles says your father was a big influence on Gysin’s visual art. Did your father and Brion ever meet?

In 1977, two years after we met, Brion told me that he knew my father in New York,  just after the war ... and they painted together in my father’s studio ... they met again in Rome in 1963...

Brion did a series of artworks titled  ‘Gracias a Matta’ in 1963 ... I have one of them...

The main subject between Brion and my father was Ouspensky, because my father did work with him...

Did you know William Burroughs well or only slightly?

Of course. William very quickly became an uncle to me.

It was Brion who introduced me to him.

Also John Giorno, Allen Ginsberg, Ornette Coleman, Steve Lacy…

Brion Gysin, Tessa Pollitt and Ramuntcho Matta at the Final Academy concert, 1982. Photographer unknown

Another fascinating person from that era you were friends with was Ira Cohen. I guess you also met him through Gysin. There is a poem of Ira’s in which he mentions you, in connection with the suicide of the poet Gherasim Luca.

Well … Ira was a visitor of Brion… But I really became close to Ira after the passing of Brion.

He was living in my place in Paris every time he was town … sometimes for weeks …

We shared the same passion for magic and initiation processes.

Brion Gysin and Ira Cohen, early 1980s. Photographer: Ramuntcho Matta

To go back in time a little, you studied music in New York in the late 1970s. You stayed at Laurie Anderson’s studio and met John Cage. What was that like?

Well, it was not exactly like that.

I had twin half-brothers.

Batan was an artist, a very good artist, but he had a problem with schizophrenia and he  committed suicide in 1976 … that is when I met Felix Guattari and discovered  la Borde… That is a mental health clinic. A very special place, not only for  “sick” people but for anyone who felt disappointed by life.

His twin brother Gordon Matta-Clark was an artist too … and he died of cancer in 1978… The day after his passing, his best friend called me and said:

“Now that Gordon is dead, come to New York and I will be your brother.”

That was Richard Nonas.

So I went and the friends of Gordon adopted me.

Laurie Anderson was very friendly and we spent some time in her studio.

I became close to John Cage and watered his plants.

It was a great, great time with Robert Raushenberg, Robert Wilson, Dickie Landry, Richard Peck, Arto Lindsay…

Watercolour by Ramuntcho Matta

I was going to the Third Street Music School.

After two years I came back to France to go back to Brion and take care of my mother.

And because I did not want to start a career.

When did your first music album come out, and how did that happen?

It came out in 1984. We did a concert with Brion in Paris and after the gig two men came backstage and said that they really enjoyed what we did.

They asked me what I would like the most. I said to make a record. One of them asked: “How much would it cost?”

I said 300 000 francs and one of the guys left.

He came back 10 minutes later with a paper bag with the money.

A few years before we had recorded Kick with Don Cherry with the money my father had given me to buy a car.

What musical instruments do you play apart from the guitar? I have seen footage of you playing the mbira – a present from Henri Michaux.

Well, “play” is a big word.

I fool around with anything that makes sounds.

Just name it… I can make a piece with it.

Also because I have synesthesia … so when I hear a sound, I see shape and colours.

Watercolour by Ramuntcho Matta

You are a non-mainstream musician – you do not produce pop music. Is it difficult for non-mainstream musicians to get recognition in France?

It is impossible to get recognition, but I am not looking for it.

I just want to be a good human being and have great relationships with friends, animals, and things.

I did have a hit song in the 80s so I achieved “success”, but I know it is  misunderstood and it is not my cup of tea.

I am not a fighter; I am lover of life.

You are also an accomplished visual art, which I suppose is not a surprise considering your father was an artist. When did you start making art? Did you have any formal art training?

Well well well … I spend a lot of time in my father’s studio.

I spent a lot of time with Gordon and Batan.

I started to draw when I was 5 or 6, with Saul Steinberg.

Watercolour by Ramuntcho Matta

I remember messing around with Asger Jorn.

I took drugs with Henri Michaux

and had great times with Brion over 10 years...

is that formal training ???

You make small watercolour paintings every morning, and share them on social media, always accompanied by poems or poetic texts. Is this daily practice like a form of yoga or meditation for you?

Yes, it is a meditation in action.

It helps me train my brain to find a lot of different paths with the infra self.

It is also a way to humanise the digital and to send “letters” to my friends.

Watercolour by Ramuntcho Matta 

I started almost 20 years ago.

You have also published several books – some of them are books of drawings, but also texts, such as Bonjour Bonjour, about Burroughs. Can you tell us more about your books? How many have you had published?

Published by Moloko Press, 2025

I have no idea.

I am like a dog.

If you ask me to do something, I will do my best.

I love to make records.

I love to make books.

As you know

because you are an artist

It is a very very lonely practice, and nobody asks you to do anything.

So every time there is an opportunity, I go.

I have made T-shirts, sound design, scenography for museums, CD-ROMs for children.

Your visual art has been exhibited in several countries, ranging from Italy to Argentina. Has there been an exhibition of your art that is a favorite for you?

Well, I love the time of the conception of an exhibition.

Because my exhibitions are the traces of an experience that I make specially for the place.

Most of the time I create relationships with the people that live in the area … schools, mental institutions, social networks… 

The thing I like the most is sharing the present with people.

You have said that through your father you have had links to the surrealists and through Gysin links to the beats. What are your thoughts about these two groups, in the year 2025?

I believe in energy and the power of intention.

The surrealist group was a reaction to the First World War: saying never again, we have to create new tools to redefine the future.

The beats were a reaction against the American way of life.

Now it is important to invent tools of resistance…

Published by Marcel le Poney, 2026

I know exactly what the world needs, and I am working on it.

Apart from your daily watercolours, do you have any projects that you are now busy with?

Having a life is a good project.

I am working on a film about my mother.

I am working on an installation with the material that Chris Marker gave me before he died.

I do a lot of workshops

and I am working on making my phone ring.

Do you believe that artists or writers or musicians have a role to play in the world? If so, what would you say that role is?

My practice is not working in the art world

I do my art in neurosciences, education…

I generate situations.

I believe the arts are a perfect way in which to expand human capacities to explore the sensitive universe. My experiences have taught me that a certain level of art is an activator of a better being.

Art is a “presence” that expresses the essence of life.

We all need a good dose of this.

This interview was originally published in The Odd Magazine, in English and in French.

Paul Warren: You’re absorbing the images through mass media, so how can they not filter into your work?

Paul Warren is an artist and illustrator with an interest in surrealism and abstract art. He works in a variety of different mediums, including collage. Paul's work has been published by Dumpster Fire Press, The Odd Magazine and Word Vomit Zine.  He has online galleries at Deviant Art and Instagram. He lives in Daventry, England.

You live in the town of Daventry, Northamptonshire, in England. What is the art scene like in England these days? What is the support for visual art? Is there a fair bit of regionalism?

I think the art scene in England is pretty staid these days. It only exist in most people’s lives when Banksy sprays something on a wall somewhere.  All of the big exhibitions are London-based, with a corporate sponsor. From time to time something interesting will pop up in an independent gallery away from the capital. I usually find out about these after the event. National media focus only on the big exhibitions: Monet or Hockney, for example. Living here these things easily pass you by! So yes, I think there is some regionalism. There have been attempts to revive the Art Lab idea in some areas, including Northampton. There are people creating art locally but few opportunities.

Thankfully I have a day job. I would never make a living out of art, wouldn’t want to, it’s far too precarious. I also have the freedom to produce what I want.

When did you first start making art? What artists inspired you when you started out, and what artists inspire you now?

I started making art as a child, drawing mainly. I do remember being obsessed with the Beatles’ Sgt Pepper album artwork. I spent virtually an entire school holiday producing Sgt Pepper-inspired drawings and paintings. It was the colour that amazed me. This was the late 70s, early 80s, in Northamptonshire ‒ there didn’t seem to be a lot of colour about then ! At about this time my eyes were opened to abstract art. The art teacher at my high school, I’d have been about 14 , sent me into a storeroom to collect some paintbrushes. On the wall there was a print of ‘Cossacks’ by Kandinsky. That blew me away. I didn’t know art could be like that. The most modern thing I’d seen up until then was a print of Seurat’s ‘Bathers at Asniéres’.

The Catch

My intention upon leaving school was to study art, but this didn’t work out and I became disillusioned with art and stopped painting and drawing as I didn’t see the point.

When I was about 19, though, I discovered a copy of Patrick Waldberg’s Surrealism. This had a massive impact on me. This led to discovering Dalí. Dalí was to me, then, the greatest artist ever. I couldn’t get enough of his work.

I started painting surreal landscapes featuring faceless ballerinas, elongated tables, jugglers on stilts, human faces buried in walls, mannequins and of course cypress trees.

This led to me collecting anything I could find on Surrealism. I was also taking an interest in Futurism and Impressionism at that time.

Another chance discovery was Naked Lunch by William S. Burroughs. I couldn’t believe that book, staggering, full of these images that just threw themselves at you, written by someone who seemingly didn’t care. Major influence. Forty or fifty books in and he’s still having the same impact.  The cut-ups were a revelation. He was a genius with that. There is a richness and beauty to the prose that a lot of people just don’t get.

Through Burroughs I came to the work of Brion Gysin. Incredible talent and who’s heard of him, compared with Burroughs? Very few people.

Another artist whose work means a lot to me is Emmy Bridgwater, the British surrealist. She didn’t produce a huge amount of work but what she did produce was mesmerising. Her painting ‘Night work is about to commence’ is astounding.

Innocence Lost

An artist whom I’ve returned to recently is Stanley Donwood, best known for his work with Radiohead. The work he produced with Thom Yorke in the early 2000s is very inspiring.  It has a questioning, almost anarchic, edge to it. Very powerful work.

I’ve always been influenced by writers. A passage from a book or a lyric from a song often triggers something. Lately this has become more apparent.  For instance I’ve been collaborating with the writer Stephen Michael Whitter, producing the artwork for a new edition of his book Tales Deceptively Honest. The artwork combines images of mainly derelict buildings with Stephen’s text, incorporating drawings, collage and digital artwork.

The book is due to be published by Dumpster Fire Press in November.

And of course I’ve made a couple of pieces based on your work. One of these, ‘Each step backward erases each step taken’, was interesting as it led me on to do a small series of astronaut-based pictures. One of them, ‘Astronaut on a deserted Street’, was used by Ryan Quinn Flanagan for the cover of his recent book Fowler’s Revenge.

I produced a series of paintings heavily influenced by this period under a pseudonym The Watchman. I’d read the Djuna Barnes novel Nightwood and I got the name from the ‘Watchman, what of the night ?’ section of the book. The British surrealist artist Conroy Maddox also used that title for one of his most famous collages, which I later discovered.

The Watchman artwork had titles like ‘Mannequin Genocide’, ‘The Last museum’, ‘The Great Illusion’, ‘Radio Nudes’, ‘The Forgotten season’, and ‘Blood sports in the morning’. The choice of title was very important to me at that time.

You tend to work in collage, but what other mediums do you use? What is your approach to making art?

I am working mainly in collage at the moment, both hand cut and digital. It’s a time-constraint thing as well. For the work I’m producing at the moment collage is the only way to get these ideas out. It’s also allowing me to incorporate text into the artwork, something I’d been trying to do for years.

The purpose of luxury

I have a technique for layering the collages, which combines hand cutting and digital montage, which seems to work well.

I prefer to paint if I have the time. I use acrylic, watercolour, oil, as well as pastels and pencils. When I paint I use very traditional techniques. The ideas tend to come quick, so I tend to work quite fast. I rarely work from sketches, so what you see is, generally, the first idea put down. Not ideal, but I can’t do it any other way.

Some of your artworks comment on political issues, such as the invasion of Ukraine, or on UK politics. What do you see as the role of the artist in today’s society?

This is a fairly recent thing for me. I was appalled by the Ukraine war and initially produced an image of Putin with a clowns nose and hair, with something offensive written across his forehead in Russian. A few people liked this, so I had it made into a T-shirt design and tried to sell it through an online site. The intention was that anything I made would be donated to the Ukraine appeal. I sold a handful of these, then the site took them down. They were inappropriate, apparently.

Rouge

I posted about this on my Facebook page and Mike Zone, who is the editor for Dumpster Fire Press, got in touch. He’d brought one of these T-shirts and was shocked by the site’s action.

He was in the process of putting together a new anthology titled World on Fire and offered to use my Putin artwork. This opened the floodgates for me and I sent Mike god knows how much Putin/Ukraine/anti-monarchy/anti-capitalist artwork.

Most of which appears in the book. The book later became World on Fire: Propagandie ,with proceeds going to the Ukraine appeal. So, a big thanks to Mike for that.

I would hope that any artist is touched by world events such as the war in Ukraine. From my point of view, you’re absorbing the images through mass media, so how can they not filter into your work?

The big figures from the years of punk have either passed on or have gone very quiet. Do you think punk it still relevant today, if not more relevant than ever?

Yes, I think it is still relevant. The ability to shock has largely gone, owing to the fact the world moves on and we’ve seen it all before. But the punk attitude and aesthetic lives on. The music is very relevant, particularly in Britain at the moment. There is a Liverpool-based poetry zine called Word Vomit, which carries on the punk aesthetic. Kate Floss who runs it has been kind enough to accept some of my text-based work. It’s DIY publishing ‒ I love that sort of thing.

Unncessary Atrocities

They do a lot of open-mic nights too. It’s the punk thing of just getting out there and doing it.

The punk aesthetic is something that I looked to last summer, for a series of alternative Queen’s Jubilee ‘stamp’ designs. These were based on a portrait of the Queen, satirical in nature and incorporated cut-up text made from media coverage, song lyrics and TS Eliot, as well as a bit of social comment on my part!

Jamie Reid was the big influence for the idea. Also David King, who did a lot of the artwork for Crass.

I was impressed with your series about the murdered actress Sharon Tate. In a way it reminded me of Warhol’s Monroe portraits, as well as his Death and Disaster series. Was Warhol in any way an influence?

They do share some similarities, not intended though. I’ve been looking at a lot of Eastern European collage and photomontage, notably the Polish artist Janusz Maria Brzeski and his ‘Birth of a Robot’ series. I didn’t realise until I started researching Sharon Tate how iconic her image could be. I say ‘could be’, as it’s been overshadowed by Manson. He took that from her. The series was intended to redress that , to take back her image. There were meant to be 10 or 12 images in the series, but it’s spiralled a bit and at the last count I had 45 pieces.

What is your opinion of outsider art? I admire outsider art tremendously, but I can’t help but feel it is becoming a sort of style.

It’s becoming big business. The Tate had a big outsider art exhibition a while back. Scottie Wilson,  the surrealist, is a good example of an outsider being brought into the mainstream, setting him up with an exhibition in a gallery and while the show was going on he was selling his artwork outside a pub around the corner for the price of a pint! Wilson had been selling his art from the back of a van before that.

Roland Penrose tried to bring him into the surrealist fold, but Wilson was treading his own path. That’s often the case with outsider art ‒ by its nature it’s different, often idiosyncratic, and generally has little commercial appeal, well, at least at the time it’s being produced.

Awkward Continents

I believe you are working with Mike Zone on a collaborative novel. Can you tell us a bit about this?

Yes, it’s to be called Dead Star: Control.  The initial inspiration was the Sharon Tate artwork we discussed earlier.  Obviously I can’t say too much at this point about the plot except that it’s a Burroughsian /Philip K Dick sci-fi thing that explores a lot of the themes surrounding the Tate murder. Mk Ultra, conspiracy theories, that sort of thing. Some of the Tate artwork will be in the book. It’s interesting, as when this idea developed, the artwork was influenced by the plot and vice versa. That’s what I find exciting ‒ the role chance plays in the process. Having a loose idea and just seeing where it leads.

Dead Star should see the light of day later this year or 2024.

We’ve collaborated before on Mike’s chapbook Fuck You: A Fucking Poetry Chap. That was great fun. The illustrations weaved around Mike’s text. It seemed to work quite well.

I also provided the Cover artwork for Mike’s latest book, Wonderful Turbulence.

Another book project that I worked on was a collaboration with both Mike and the poet Shannon Lynette, titled Razorville.

It was really interesting to see how the words and images ‘collided’ as the book developed: text influencing artwork, artwork influencing text.

Razorville was published earlier this year by Dumpster Fire Press.

Milk and Honey

What do you see as the future of art in England?

Interesting question. I’m not seeing anything inspiring coming out of the mainstream art world. The problem is it’s all about sales and profit. Everything I see that is inspiring, a little bit different, is online. There are a lot of people like myself who need to create art ‒ it’s about searching for something different. I don’t really take an interest in contemporary art anymore. Everything is too commercial, too safe, too nice.

Where’s the fun in that?

This interview originally appeared in The Odd Magazine.